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2 door sedan 1000 build, single rotor goodness

considered something like that, but it woud mean the engine would have to sit higher. then the turbo wouldn't fit, so the engine would have to go even further back... At this stage i think i'll already be moving the pedals back 20mm to clear the dump pipe off the turbo.
 
I do like the tube frame tunnel idea, it will make fabricating the exhaust a lot easier then laying on my back under the car. plus it will make pulling the gearbox and engine so much easier.
 
Engineer is happy to put it through as being turbo (ie needs to meet his requirements for adding a turbo) without installing the turbo so it doesn't have to be engineered again.
You have no idea how tempting it is to put the t25 i already have on it and call it a day, but i'm interested to see what the 6 port motor can do given it's large standard ports. The equivalent sinlge circle diameter (measured at the intake manifold flange) is just over 55mm, with port timing similar to a late opening PP. But with the ability to control the opening of the aux ports it will still have low and mid range torque, with a sacrafice of a bit top end due to the intake not being on the peripheral. 
Given that people get around 160-170rwhp out of a 6 port (no major porting, just a clean up and change to turbo centre plate) and how small the centre plate (compared with 6 port end plates) is i'm hoping to get about 85-100rwhp with it na before porting. Although given the stock port timing this will likely occur around the 8-9000rpm mark. I'm hoping a 4.7ish diff with the rx8 6 speed gearbox should help to get it up to revs quickly, when combined with some 9.7:1 lightened rotors.
I'm hoping for similar power to a standard NA 1.6 MX5, but being in a~400kg lighter chassis. The mx5 i used to have was good fun through the hills of adelaide, with just enough power to not get you in too much trouble, but enough to have a bit of fun. I think on a track it's limits would have been similar to mine (on street tyres), but my limits were the limiting factor through the hills.
I had a lot more fun with the MX5 off the track then my 180sx as i knew i could rev it that bit harder without going past my limits. In the 180sx, even on low boost (14psi) and only making a bit over 200rwhp, hitting too much boost at the wrong part of the corner would have the back end come out, hence my hesitation to drive it to it's potential off the race track. I'm sure the 2 way diff, rose-jointed everything, stiff coilovers and solid mounted engine, diff and gearbox didn't help on the bumpy eneven roads...
 
If you really advise to go down the turbo route straight away (from experience driving both NA and turbo single rotors), I'll look into running a low boost turbo (as you suggested) for around 120rwhp or so. What turbo would you recommend for this application?
I'll still keep the 6 port arrangement though as i believe i need to focus on getting the best 'area under the curve' power until i get used to the set-up (both lightweight chassis, high revving rotary, as well as getting gearing sorted out)
 
I agree a PP would be the best set-up overall for a turbo rotary. When PPing it I would rather invest in alloy end plates rather then fill the standard ports and I don't have the budget to do this yet, plus they won't pass engineering. Once engineered though, they could easily be swapped and no one will know...
Cheers
Luke
I actually stuffed up as you dont need the 2 angled sides just one parallel flat bar parallel to the steering rack so I updated the last pic on the last post but not quite sure now if you are using the front cover anymore now you have the dry sump setup but have you seen the renesis front cover its very compact avs older front covers, pumps no dizzie etc.

 
I would only use a VNT turbo around T28bb size as the 13b puts out 4 litre exhaust energy
and the single would be halve that but the VNT turbo is variable so no lag also.
 
I would go PP with VNT turbo and run 6 psi for starters but if you are set on the 6 port
I can only suggest it for the NA tune as turbo you only need unlimited flow in and out
which the PP would give. The other option is ported renesis 6 port setup and only use
the front plate for inlet and exhaust, once ported they are massive eg.

 
would save alot of space like the PP but give you no sealing issues or overlap found on PPs
yet should be boosted to make use of the side feed from one side only
 
All in all rotaries boosted are very different to pistons engines, they are very responsive and predictable
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If i had more space between the engine and steering rack i would do exactly that, but there is about 50mm at the largest point, before i fabricate a timing cover.
Undecided on exact plan for the timing cover atm, i'll either chop the bottom 1/3rd off the 12a timing cover and put a 6-8mm bit of alloy plate in it's place, or completely fab a new timing cover. It will likely come down to time, cost and practicallity.
I couldn't use the standard rx8 timing cover regardless as i need the engine mount to be on the front of the engine. It may help to clean up the engine bay though without the dizzy tube, if i decided not to fab a new timing cover from scratch.
 
Agreed a PP would be the ideal set-up for a turbo, waiting to hear back from engineer about the legality of a PP though. It's always been my 'final set-up' plan, but as mentioned i would like to see what the 6 port is capable of NA. I guess my comparison will be to the B6ZE engine in the early NA MX5 (later engines were detuned)
 
FYI specs of early NA MX5 1.6ltr
114hp @ 6500rpm
136nm @ 5500rpm
 
Specs for 6 port 13b
146hp @ 6500rpm
187nm @ 3500rpm
therefore 1/2 13b would be approx
75hp @ 6500rpm
95nm @ 3500rpm
I figure with a decent intake, exhaust, 9.7:1 rotors and ECU (mixed with removing the very small and restrictive centre plate) i should be able to get over 100hp at the flywheel, although at a higher rpm (closer to 8,000).
BTW 200rwhp has been cracked with just an exhaust and Power FC, although 160-170rwhp seems to be the 'expected' output (about 200hp at the flywheel) 
 
Where/what would you source the VNT turbo from? From what i've read the exhaust gas temperature (from a piston petrol engine) are too high for the actuated vanes to handle. The only ones i know of that are suitable for petrol engines are from Porsche because then internal parts are made from inconel. 
I'm already convinced that becuase of my planned lack of exhasut manifold (turbo will bolt straight to the motor) i'll need an inconel inducer, I'm not sure if a VNT system would stand up to that abuse
Cheers
Luke
BTW what diameter exhasut did the PP turbo single rotor 13b run?
I need to allow room for it before i fab a trans tunnel.
Was leaning towards either 2.5 or 3"
Cheers
Luke
Could it be possible the halve hp and torque figures occur at much higher rpm when using a single
as the ancillaries put more strain on one rotor than on 2 so maybe 500rpm higher for both?
 
The VGT unit would be off a porsche however a single RB26dett unit could work dont they
have inconel units that can only handle 12psi max? however you will need more boost
eventually unless you run a supercharger off the front shaft like a bugatti or austin 7 sports
twin charged single rotor etc. I think 2.5 inches would be fine as my 12a Bp turbo ran 3 inches
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It's possible that the max rpm/torque may be at a higher rpm, but keep in mind i don't have AC or power steering, so that should help offset it back to the 'normal' rpm.
 
I know that the s13 sr20/ca18 had ceramic exhaust wheels, didn't realise r32 GT-R's did as well. May look into that... Hopefully someone at work can point me in the right direction.
Eventual turbo will likely have to come off a porsche or be custom built, either way it'll be $$$...
 
UPDATE:
After many hours of measuring, thinking and 3D modelling/FEA i have finally decided on how to mount the engine. As they say pictures tell 1000 words.

The timing cover/engine mount will bolt through the holes that steering box would normally bolt to. Mr Datsun was nice enough to put them on both sides and also mirror them, meaning i only need to cut one template. I have already traced the require shape onto 6mm alloy plate and drilled all of the mounting holes, but need to use the mill to cut the locating holes (as they aren't going all the way through the plate and need a flat bottom).
I was hoping to get a bit of help milling the locating holes today (i had to go into work for a few hrs), but there was a breakdown on one of the machines, so hopefully i'll get a chance to look at it during the week.
I'm hoping to pick up a front stationary gear and front counterweight during the week to see if i can modify them to fit within the flat plate timing cover or if i'll have to add a rasied section.

I've also cut out the trans tunnel to fit the gearbox in, i didn't get a chance to headover to an exhasut shop to grab some 2.5" or 3" tube so can't start fabricating the near gearbox tunnel yet. I assume everyone runs their exhasut tucked up next to the gearbox so it doesn't hang low?
 
The dry sump pump has also been disassembled and had it's stages reduced by 1, but again need to use the milling machine to make a new plate to divide the suction from pressure side.
Cheers
Luke
its gonna look nuts and well done on the engine and rack mount combo
Looks like you will have heaps of room left over for all kinds of things.
Maybe even a gt40 style bonnet for an inset angled radiator?
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Cheers,
 
Tha'ts the plan an angled radiator ducted through the bonnet. I've got enough room that i can run a radiator around 600x600mm, I'll just need to find what the skinniest radiator is available and aprox match the cooling capacity to what a 13b would normally have. This will allow for the minimum weight (least water and material), maximum cooling (thinner core) and least cost. And providing it's ducted correctly more then adaquate for even the hottest days at the track.
 
I have managed to cut out the brackets for the engine mounts. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to finish up the timing cover itself though. Which is annoying as i don't know if i'll be able to get the engine mount finished this weekend. Hopefully I can get it tacked together and then welded up durng the week.
I'll post pics and the rest of my progress on Sunday arvo or during the week.
 
d,
I'm going to be in Japan for a week (yokohama) for work, I'll have most of the nights free and possibly one full day. What would you recommend to go and see/do? Nismo factory is already on my list for friday (as it's a half day), but i'm hoping I may get to go on a tour through work (I work at Nissan).
 
Cheers
Luke
Cheers
Luke
Great you sorted out the challenges you faced to get to where you want
I planned to do a fwd in the rear 1000 setup MA10ET with MA12S crank
but looks like that wont happen for quite sometime. Yet the MA12 turbo
can make 240hp with the right setup and rev to 9000rpm with the bare
bottom end and head weighing 43kg sump to rocker cover.
 
Check yout https://www.timeout.com/tokyo
 
As Yokohama and Tokyo change on a yearly basis but definitely the Museum and
even the Zama company if still around would be ace to see what happens there now.
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Been busy with work the last few weeks and with trial games for footy the last 3 weekends not a lot of progress has been made.
 
I managed to finish up the alloy plate i was going to use for the timing cover/engine mount, but had a lot of issues getting it to fit.
First of all the locating pins were a pain, even using a gasket as a template they were still 1-2mm out so the hole had to be elongated.
Then i couldn't get the turbo to fit properly with the engine in the same spot as everything was measured.
So I decided to cut the flange off my t25 and weld a 13b exhaust flange onto it so i could properly mount the turbo, although this didn't work so well, as i needed a third set of hands. I ended up welding a small peice of pipe onto the flange so that it would help hold the turbo in place while i tacked it.
 
To get everything to fit i had to move the engine across another 5mm making the alloy plate i had cut no longer fit. absolute pain in the butt... but at least the turbo is now mounted so everything can be fitted around it.

You can really see how little width there is in a 1000's engine bay when you consider the engine ia about 30mm offset to the passenger side just to get a little T25 to fit.
And this is how little clearance there is between the turbo and the engine to get it to line up.

 

There should be just enough room to fit an exhasut in there, although the dump pipe will not be able to be removed with the turbo on the motor.
 
I also took apart all of the front end suspension so i could sandblast it at work... just as everything was ready to go the machine broke, it should hopefully be fixed this week.
Cheers
Luke
While your front suspension is apart, check the crossmember where the lower control arm bolts up.
make sure the holes are still round.
 
I kept one from a 1000 that got wrecked and one side was worn by approx 3-4mm.
I ended up welding high tensile washers to the crossmember in the original hole positions for extra thickness/strength and also welded up/drilled the original holes round again.
 
Loving your build so far
1967 Datsun B10 2 Door.
how is this going, keen for news
 
Its making me itchy for a datsun 1000 again but with rear mounted fwd 5 speed and single rotor
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haven't made much progress.
 
stripped down a 1200 rear axle ready to put S13 brakes on it and am waiting to pick up a front counterweight and stat. gear so I can figure out the plate thickness for the timing cover/engine mount.
 
Also to be on the safe side i'll be ordering the turbo and fitting it before deciding the final location of the motor (don't want to do it twice).
 
FYI turbo is going to be a Garrett GTX2860R Gen II, but i'm waiting until I get back from Japan until i order it and the two peice rotors for the front brakes. 
 
BTW if your going to be using a fwd box i'd consider a VW dual clutch gearbox, would be a cheap way to get a dual clutch gearbox (and 7 speeds). I wanted to use one, but they are too expensive/hard to find to suit a longitudinal set-up so went with a rx8 box instead. Only downside was the lack of clutch for the odd drift prac/matsuri, but i would have kept my drift car then, not that i have sold it yet...
Cheers
Luke
Probably discussed this but tilting it 10-15 degrees towards the passenger side would allow more
driver leg room and to think the next genn rotary inlet and exhaust sit at the top of the motor!
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Been a while since i have posted on here.
 
Unfortunately i have been very busy with work and have had minimal time to work on the datto.
 
I did order a garrett GTX2860R Gen II and a Tial external wastegate, which has also arrived (just a bit bigger then the T25...)

 
And some rough calcs overlayed onto the compressor map. Note that due to space limitations i will have to PP the motor before i can run a turbo, hence the turbo being a bit on the big side. Note that in improved production people are running 13b's at 11-12,000rpm, so it gives me some scope for more revs (and power) in the future.

 
The downside to the larger turbo is i have to move the engine even further back and also further across to the passenger side, but it all still fits... Just. I'll have to revise the engine mount, but i think I have a better solution anyway. I will have to come up with a new steering linkage though as the current set-up fowls, but it's possible to get it to fit (socket and extensions going a good job for a mock up). Note there is just over 6mm clearance between the turbo and chassis rails in this photo, but i have to mill the V band pipe down another 5mm. As mentioned before the engine will be solid mounted, not that i really have a choice now...

 
With just enough room for the dry sump pump to still fit
 

 
The external wastegate was a squeese, but there was no way i could fit an internal gate actuator in
 

As you can see from the photo below it sits just above the height of the bottom of the engine. Note that I'll be running a dry sump (so it won't hang lower then shown) and the lowest point on the engine sits just above the floor level (lowest point)

 
The unexpected advantage of the turbo's position was that the location of the exhaust was now in a position where i can fit in the clutch in a near standard position (was worried about this earlier), although this is a little hard to see in this photo.
 

 
I have also made a template bracket for mounting S13 rear calipers and discs to the 1200 Ute rear axle i have

 

I have started to cut out the parts out of aluminium, hoping to have these all cut and ready for painting next week.
 
I'm hoping to make good progress next week as i've got odd (but awesome) working hours Mon-Wed of 2pm-11pm, so should be able to get a heap done in the mornings before work.
 
Plan is to have the engine and gearbox mounted before the Queens birthday long weekend (3 weeks away), and then try and smash through as much body work (rust repair) over the 3 days as i can. Trying to rope a few mates into helping as well, but they are as enthusiastic as i am about body work...
 
D,
I did try to rotate the motor, but to get any advantage out of it the gear shifter would likely end up in the passengers lap.
Cheers
Luke
with what you have been doing you could cut and shut the box
as you know and rewelding to get the angle you want as you
are running dry sumping so you have some option there.
Its all extra work but maybe also have you considered running
the steering rack on the other side of crossmember with the
radiator support combined that way you have more space.
That means reversing the uprights but slightly longer steering
box connectors, mid 90s on volvo have featherweight alloy ones.
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I didn't get alot done this week, but continued moving the engine around some more in an attempt to give myself more room for the steering. I took d's advice and rotated the engine slightly to give myself a little more room. Not that you can see it in this photo...

 
I then started to make a third attempt at an engine mount.

 
And the base of the engine mount, where you can see how much of a lean the motor is on.
 

 
I have cut and tacked another plate onto this one as well, but didn't take a photo as it still needs a little trim and my grinder battery went flat...
 
The plan is to dimple die the mount for added strength as well as reduced weight, that said once welded together i'd bet i could jump up and down on it and it wouldn't flex...
 
Also meant to be picking up a front counterweight and stat gear 2moro so i can work out the thickness of the timing cover and srat fabrication on it.
Cheers
Luke
Luke I see you put great thought into everything but just in case again
It wouldnt hurt the dynamics if you moved the engine forward a smidgen
and do the rack and pinion in front of the crossmember.
The Rack and radiator can be supported together and alternator or
dry sump pump of both can run directly off the front shaft since you
are running an electric pump which are better for rotaries.
You will benefit as you know from needed exhaust dowpipe clearance
and you feet wont get as hot as Ive had a dozen and in hindsight
would like to comment on a major hurdle that is very cruicial to this build
as rotors all heat up the cabin like you would not believe till you own one.
The exhaust shielding is never enough for the temps of rotary engines
even Mazda racing their 727 had many fires and cabin issues even
after many years of engineering and countless hours racing rotaries.
It will get very uncomfortable very quickly NA or Turbo.
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Why do you keep giving me these good reasons to change my set-up? never going to get this thing done
 
Bit of an update while i'm here..
 
Managed to get hold of an E-shaft, front stat gear, new rear stat gear and both counterweights. By the looks of it i can only save about 2-3mm off the distance between the front plate to the end of the front counterweight. so not really worth it, which more or less rules out a flat plate to replace the timing cover...
 
Which leads me back to D's suggestion of moving the steering rack infront of the x-member. after many hours measuring, drawing and working out angles to minimise bump steer and ackerman i realised i could mount the steering arms in the same plane with the same pivots as the lower control arms. This will lead to no bump steer, although not perfect akerman, but close enough (rack should me about 15-20mm longer). I'm hoping to mock it up and have a template ready to go by the end of the long weekend.
FYI for those playing at home a starlet steering rack needs to be shortened by 130mm and the rods need 45mm taken off each side. I will have to try and find a suitable steering linkage though, as the starlet one is now miles too short...
 
I haven't looked at moving the engine forward yet, but given i'll end up running a standard front timing cover (to save cost and time) i don't think i'll be able to move it forward a lot.
 
I'll upload pic when there is something other then pages of calculations and drawings to show...
Cheers
Luke
I unfortunately went through similar throught processes for my single before I sold it
I think what you are doing is fantastic for handling with the rotor being so down low,
In the end regardless if I went single rotary I decided to move the crossmember
lengthening the wheelbase to 92 inches before I had to give up and move to Japan
but would have loved to have finished her with the Honda ST v4 1300cc and boost
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